Tony Allen-Mills, New York
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WHEN Jessica Valenti read that successful young New York women were hiding their large incomes for fear of intimidating potential boyfriends, her response was an angry snort.
“This just makes me sad,” said Valenti, the 28-year-old editor of Feministing.com , a popular feminist website. “Is masculinity so damn fragile that it can’t handle being treated to dinner? It seems there is no worse dating gaffe than having the nerve to make more money than your significant other – if you’re a woman, that is.”
When Valenti launched an online discussion of new research into the growing spending power of American women, she was flooded with replies. It was the same at numerous other websites last week as an army of bloggers and internet surfers chewed over the latest threat to sexual, marital and economic harmony – at least among well-to-do urban Americans.
The cause of the row was the publication of a study of women’s incomes as revealed by 2005 census data. For the first time women in their twenties are earning more than their male counterparts in at least five American cities, including New York, Boston and Chicago. In Dallas, young women earn on average 20% more than men.
The study, by Professor Andrew Beveridge of Queens College in New York, concluded that women’s increasing affluence was largely the result of growing numbers of female university graduates. More than 50% of women in full-time work have college degrees, compared with 38% of men.
The figures change dramatically once women enter their thirties – when many start families and fall behind men in the promotion race. However, the study has touched a raw nerve among both sexes as upwardly mobile urbanites struggle to adjust to a striking shift in the balance of domestic finances.
The main question on Valenti’s website last week was whether the male ego can cope with the potentially emasculating strain of being out-performed and out-spent by the new breed of fast-rising female lawyers, doctors and architects.
It is a phenomenon that older men have long learnt to deal with – one 2005 study calculated that 8.3m American wives earn more than their husbands. But it appears to be more difficult for men in their twenties to deal with what Valenti described as “their hunter instincts”.
The other issue canvassed across the internet was whether women should pander to male insecurities by “dating down” – playing down their professional success so as not to scare off potential husbands. Newsweek magazine once famously calculated that an American woman has a better chance of being killed by a terrorist than getting married after the age of 40.
Heather Radish, a recently qualified electrical engineer from Milwaukee, said: “When I tell a man what I do for a living, they get away so fast they leave skid marks. I guess their dream is compromised by a woman who not only pays her own way but can also set up her own electronics.”
A contributor to another “dating down” discussion noted that “most of my single women lawyer friends identify themselves as an airline stewardess if they are trying to meet men, even in a fun setting like a bar”.
Lori Weiss, a 29-year-old Manhattan lawyer, told The New York Times last week that she has clipped the price tags off clothes she has bought – and hidden designer shopping bags – so that men she met would not feel threatened by her spending power.
“A lot of guys don’t want to admit they have a problem with it,” she said. “But I think it’s ingrained.”
For many other women, concerns like these are risible, degrading and largely restricted to spoilt white bourgeois couples who can afford to agonise over who pays at the wine bar.
Megan McArdle, whose blog is published by The Atlantic Monthly magazine, says that the real sufferers are not the “precious princesses” who feel obliged to treat their men like “Prince Daddy”, but the middle-class black and Latino women who are making similar advances in income but are dealing in many cases with much more deep-rooted male prejudices.
Yet it was also clear from a flood of personal testimonies – and frequent barrages of gender abuse – that the adjustment to a world of female fortune is exacer-bating long-standing sexual tensions. These were once memora-bly summarised by a New York Times book reviewer as: “Men are selfish pigs. And there aren’t enough of them to go around.”
For every man who claimed last week that he would be thrilled to have the chance to meet a “sugar momma”, there was a woman like Sarah MC, who noted on one blog: “If we do allow men to pay for us [when we first start dating] they expect us to put out [have sex].”
Some women were reminded of the Sex and the City television series in which Miranda, a successful executive, wants Steve, her slacker boyfriend, to attend an office function. He does not have a suit and prefers to stay at home rather than let her buy him one.
“I remember wanting to punch him so hard,” said Riley St Clair, a New York executive. “I would feel deeply hurt and insulted if I was dating a guy who would rather sit at home . . . because he couldn’t deal with me [paying all the bills]”.
At one point on McArdle’s blog a woman noted: “Wow! The never-ending battle of the sexes goes on and on. I’m so glad I’m a lesbian.”
That battle of the sexes, according to Professor Andrew Hacker, a New York sociologist, will not be won any time soon. In a 2003 book Hacker argued that marriage rates may continue to fall if young professional women seek only their financial equals as mates.
“There is a greater divide between the sexes than at any time in living memory,” Hacker said. “The result will be a greater separation of women and men, with tensions and recriminations afflicting beings once thought to be naturally companionable.”
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Dear Well-Paid, Well-Educated Women in Their 20s:
Keep limiting yourselves to the ever-shrinking pool of well-paid, well-educated men in their 20s, and, 10-15 years from now, when you're still single and/or childless, you'll wish you hadn't been so picky.
Sincerely,
A well-paid, well-educated man in his 30s who wishes he were 19 again, because the college campus ratio of women to men will soon be 3 to 1.
The Cronk, New York, NY
Ladies, if we men walk away upon hearing what you do for a living, it's because we know you're looking for a man who makes as much as you make or more (because heaven forbid you date someone your girlfriends won't approve of). So why waste our time or yours??
The Cronk, New York, NY
The fact is most women date/marry up. A recent study says that in large US cities, young women make more than young men. Women only date guys who make at least as much as them or more, though there are some exceptions. What does this mean? Women will put off marriage and engage in casual sex, so here comes the sex in the city lifestyle for more and more women. They will think these men are beneath them. What is the reason that after 30 men make more than women? Because men don't quit their jobs or cut back to part time like women do, because men have to deal with realizing work sucks, but women realize a man will provide for them, whereas a man with that mentality would become homeless. My advice for Americans on here, is to date women in the suburbs, women that like the outdoors, as they tend not to be the princess types. You will have to make more than them, but not much. You can make 60k a year and not be deemed "worthless" by them.
Steve, Virginia,
If a woman hides her designer bags and cuts the price tags off new so called designer regalia, before her boyfriend, husband or other half has seen the price, how does she know he has a problem with the price and her spending power??
Any educated man worth his salt should not feel emasculated simply because the memsahib earns more than he does (unless she bitch-slaps him every morning as well).
Ade, London,
My wife earns more than me and is a manager.
My boss is female, her deputy is female
I work in an office of 40 women and 3 men.
I frikkin love it!!
Phill Barlow, Wirral, England
I think these men are correct to run. Women who are high wage earners and who are the main bread-winner in a relationship will use that fact to control and abuse their male partners in ways no male would ever dare to. Life with them is terrible because they are only focused on being as competitive and as capable "as a man". But they have no compassion or womanly qualities. If I wanted to date a man, I would be gay.
JT, Scottsdale, AZ
Men in general donât care what women earn. Women, on the other hand, care very much what men earn. Women still want men to pay for everything, which is a holdover from the Leave it to Beaver days and earlier when women were homemakers. They are raised to expect this. Now, women want it both ways. They want to work the same jobs and earn the same as men (actually, they usually earn more â see Warren Farrell). This leads to women who seek men who earn more than men, regardless of their income. So, a woman who earns $150k is going to look for men earning $250k & up. Prof. Hacker is right.
Women claim they want equality, but they really donât. When it comes to courtship and marriage, they want a return to the 1950s. They still want their man earning more than them, they still want him paying for everything. Most logical men find this situation hypocritical and untenable, and increasingly avoid relationships and marriage as a result.
WA, Scottsdale, AZ
I'm a highly educated global travelling male (two degrees and a graduate diploma) and I feel threatened in the presence of women with high incomes.
It's not the high incomes alone which intimidate me. Its the way that intersecst with other factors.
I have been bothered for a couple of decades now that there is distinct discrimination in favor of women in many spheres of life and decades of huge tolerance from women for media displays of demonising derogatory characterization of men. Women have been conspicously unsupportive of the stand against unfair brickbats against men for as long as I can recall. I've also never yet met a woman who appeared to respect and admire her boyfriend's / spouse's decision to down-shift and get a life rather than be a salary man / wgae grunt.
Allot of guys I know are also too busy trying to get equal rights in healthcare, family law and reproductive rights to be bothered with uncomplimentary and worse even harsh women.
MGTOW Men going their own way.
Stephen, Gold Coast, QLD, Australia
It's pretty clear that the men are turned off by these women's personalities. Look at the so-called price-tag-clipping gal (assuming that's not a story). If a man sees a woman buying lots of expensive clothes, he's probably less intimidated by her superior earning power and MORE worried that she's "high maintenance". The guy in Mission Viejo now is stuck being the breadwinner anyway AND having to praise his wife for living off of him. One woman above sneered that she didn't care what men thought (exactly. That may explain why these men aren't excited about footing her bill...)
The men who possess the combination of 1) High income breadwinners and 2) Liberated saps who praise women earning big money to blow on shoes and $5000 handbags, are increasingly rare.
21 year old girls working as receptionists are a hell of a lot less trouble, better looking and MORE appreciative. That's just the way it is... some things will never change...
Mark, Falls Church,, USA/Virginia
Don't know what's wrong with these women: they need to develop some backbone rather than lying about their income. If the man can't deal with your success, he's not worth bothering with anyway. Any intelligent man who is confident and secure in himself won't be threatened by a woman's earning power. I'm sure plenty of men would be only too happy to have women paying the bills to take the social pressure off them!
This has been blown out of proportion by the media, I think. Maybe the real problem is that these women don't have sufficient confidence or pride in their achievements to be honest and upfront. I would be put off by a man who exaggerated his earning power to impress me so I'm sure a man would be put off by a woman who pretended she was an airline steward when she's actually a successful lawyer.
MB, Edinburgh,
Clip the price tags off your clothes? If it is necessary to do that, then it probably means you spend excessive amounts of money, whether a man or a woman. I consider that to be a New York phenomenon - and its not pretty. Salary is a funny measure of self worth, and it paints an illusion. Is a lawyer really better than a car mechanic? There is honour in fixing someone's car. There is not always honour in the process of the law - yet that is often where the money lies. All that glitters is not gold.
Shane, Wellington, NZ
I don't care how much a woman makes. As long as she loves me for my mind, and not my body.......
m.J., Iowa, U.S.A.
We will likely see more and more of this. A terrifying proportion of young males in the U.S. are growing up with no positive male guidance. This results (among other things) in poor school performance. This in turn leaves them with little choice but lower-paying work, especially in an economy where global competition and mass illegal immigration have resulted in far fewer well-paid blue-collar jobs than was once the case. Younger women are getting better educations than younger men and so are making more money.
D.L. Anderson, Crossett, AR/U.S.A.
A completely distorted article. So a tiny percentage of US women earn more than their partners. And some men don't like it. Who cares? Frankly a lot of men don't like women they can't control, they don't like the ones they can either. They just don't like women! What about the global inequity where women are the losers? Sadly, it's far more the case that women earn less than men and that men use their greater economic power to try to dominate the relationship and control the woman. I've also seen the reverse where she earns and he's a lazy user and he STILL tries to dominate her (just not going as far as to get a job) I don't know any men or women who care that much about earning power or status, maybe that's cos I wouldn't want to! I personally don't think it's any of my business what he earns and vice versa! Women should focus on following their own vocations, creating their own financial independence and enjoying their own lives. And stop worrying what men think. Men ditto.
Claire, Bridgwater,
I find women obsessed with money and status. I couldn't care less what a girl does for a living, but the opening gambits from most women seem to be little more than disguised shake-downs of your assets. It doesn't impress.
It's a rare thing to find a girl who's actually interested in you as a person. Most of them are snapped up straight away by grateful men.
rob, london,
When I hear how several of the women interviewed above view men it occurs to me that maybe....possibly.....it isn't their income that is scaring men away "so fast they leave skid marks", but they fact that they are an almighty pain in the backside.
Paul, Esher,
I don't see any point in lying and hiding like I do. Yes, some (actually, a lot of) men have a problem with us so-called career-women. It's quite naive to expect that they will later change their minds about it and suddenly become incredibly proud and supportive. not likely, if a man doesn't like what you do and how much you make then that will only become bigger and bigger problem later in the relationship. or are those women planning to keep pretending for ever?
Miranda, london,
It's unfair - not to mention downright sexist - to say that it's all the men's problem. Women earning more than us upsets our 'hunter instincts'? Well, what if I were to suggest that it upsets women's 'princess instincts'? I've married twice; both times my wife earned more than I did when we were married. Both times I had no problem with this, and in the first marriage my income had risen above hers within a few years. I anticipate the same thing will happen this time around, but trust me - I was never the one with the problem; in both cases the unhappiness came from my wife(/ves) whose upbringing had led them to feel that they needed a husband who'd take care of everything financially.
Julian, London, UK
My girlfriend is far more successful than me, with a staff of several hundred and a substantial budget, but because she works in development and I work in a commercially competitive field I earn more than her. She wants to move to a dreadful warzone in Africa and in theory I'd be happy to follow as I admire her and she quite literally "saves lives". However, I simply can't afford to follow here and I think it will be the end of our relationship.
What would Miranda do? Or indeed these various feminists?
Bill , London,
Most of the problems highlighted in this article come about from the basic life philosophy that money and status define a person. Couple that with a childish level of self-centredness and bingo, you have relatively well-off people who have multiple neuroses about their relationships.
Go and live in the developing world, or do something really useful with your life and these selfish preoccupations will fade into their proper perspective.
Never equate money with success, nor ambition with courage; doing so devalues vast numbers of truly incredible people, and it devalues yourself.
Paul, Cusco, Peru
I've heard it too many times before. Women of today want it all and good luck to them. When they have found their man who doesn't mind have meals bought for him; who is happy to stay at home and look after the kids; who'll be content to clean the house; they'll discover he is old, flabby and boring and will then have an affair with some other male who is younger and most exciting. (This assumes the boring stay-at-home male is the father of the children in the first place. Motherhood is fact; fatherhood is merely speculation!)
The go-get'em types of young women of today are unlikely to stay interested in a man who does the home duties.
NickT, Aldershot,
âI remember wanting to punch him so hard,â said Riley St Clair, a New York executive. âI would feel deeply hurt and insulted if I was dating a guy who would rather sit at home . . . because he couldnât deal with me [paying all the bills]â.
Two points here:
1) Hillary Clinton's website indicates that there is a gender wage gap. This article proves that there is not.
2) This executive is guilty of thinking of "domestic violence" because her boyfriend does not agree with her. The domestic violence industry should take note. Women are just as, if not more, violent than men.
David, portland,
I have no problem with it. Show me the money baby~
Michael A. Lesniak, Fairfield, IA
I'm married to a stay at home mother of three, but it wasn't always that way. When we married, she earned double what I did. I have always been attracted to success-oriented women. (Runs in the family--my mother is the CEO of a TV Station who makes 3X what my father does. I've never seen him as less masculine, it's just that his job (he's a minister) doesn't pay that well.)
I do not want a mouse but someone with a brain who knows what she wants and how to lead...Mmmmm. My wife and I made a decision for her to stay home to raise our kids, not out of economics, but because she was better at it than I was. We took a substantial cut in pay to make me the primary bread-winner, but I still look at my career as a partnership. Sure, we have different roles, but she is still just as smart and success oriented. She's simply got a different (and really tough!) assignment.
Greg, Mission Viejo, USA / CA
I would be most happy for a woman to pay for diner. Any offers?
Stephen, Kualar Lumpur, Malaysia
Um..... to be honest I'm broke so i DO NOT and have never minded someone else buying the dinner!
In fact, when ever I'm in a relationship I try to split everything 50/50 funny thing is my girlfriend told me outright: "I'm not the independent type. I need a man to look after me." Which translates to a 33/66 split.
So how's that for equality? Or maybe it just says something about Japanese society.
Funny how things work out.
Ben, Narita, Japan
For NotNOW - wow, your post is riddled with feelings, not logic. And I don't know about the family courts where you come from, but, dude, don't even go there.
And Luke - no one likes being lied to, but take it a little easier on women. It often all feels like a no-win situation, after working so hard and doing what feels right. You have no idea how many men turn away after being dumbfounded by the answer to the question, "So, what do you do?" I'm hoping I'll meet one brave enough to be pleased with my response, but for now, I don't hold it against any woman who after repeated rejections plays it down a little. This is an epidemic in our culture, and educated and successful women are trying various ways to cope with it.
V, Tempe, AZ
If men and women trusted each other, women earning more would be OK. But women's personal lives are guided by feelings, not facts. Facts do not change, but feelings do. Men, never give any woman dominion over you, in any form whatsoever. They will destroy you as soon as they change their minds. Family courts are littered with the corpses of trusting men.
NotNOW, R, VA,
Actually, she was sarcastically quoting someone else when she made a reference to "hunter instincts." She wrote a post stating that this article misrepresents her views and she is upset about it. http://feministing.com/archives/007826.html
Joe, chicago, il
i personally would be more offended if i met a woman who was a professional and then found out later she had lied to me about herself. I mean if she will lie about herself to get a man to begin with, where will it stop
Luke Rumfelt, Stanley, NC