Richard Ford and Sean O’Neill
Win a fitness package worth more than £3,000

Ministers will defy public concern over gang violence by claiming today that crime is falling at a record rate.
Even before the final figures for the British Crime Survey (BCS) were in, Whitehall officials had already begun drawing up plans to trumpet the reduction in offences, The Times has learnt.
The survey, published today, will state that crime is falling in all 43 police forces in England and Wales and that the Government has exceeded its key target of cutting offences by more than 15 per cent since 2003. Its release comes at a time when the credibility of official statistics is being questioned. Senior police are worried about shortcomings in recording two major areas: knife and gun crime.
Despite a recent series of stabbings, the survey will conclude that knife crime is stable. The researchers interview 47,000 people aged 16 and over about their experience of crime over the previous 12 months. They cannot capture the extent of knife crime because they do not interview under16s.
Other figures to be released today will show that police recorded about 20,000 serious offences involving knives last year, including grievous bodily harm, attempted murder, woundings and robbery. It is the first time such figures have been collected.
The BCS will show that violent crime is down but that drug offences are up. The Times understands that it will show a fall in offences from 12.3 million in 2002-03 to about 10.3million in 2007-08. It will be argued that crime has fallen by 30 per cent since Labour came to power in 1997.
At a meeting of the National Policing Board in May - minutes of which have been seen by The Times - ministers and civil servants discussed how best to promote their message. Sir David Normington, Permanent Secretary at the Home Office, “congratulated all concerned on a remarkable performance” and the meeting “discussed the lack of recognition that had been given to such impressive figures”.
Stephen Cahill, of the Police and Crime Standards Unit, said that the Government should “claim success”. He added: “Resources would be committed to getting the message across.”
Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, told the meeting that congratulations were in order and said she hoped that there would be more public recognition of the cut in crime.
The survey will reignite the debate on the validity of crime figures. Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, complained last month that the public did not believe crime statistics because they were compiled in an absurd and bewildering way.
He said in a lecture: “In London, there is almost no public faith in the crime figures.”
The commissioner called for a new set of “simple and credible” statistics. He is one of several police chiefs who have warned ministers of “the paucity of information on guns” and called for a concerted intelligence effort to discover where criminals get guns.
Assistant Chief Constable Jon Murphy, who is working on a policing project to develop a clearer picture of organised crime and gang activity, told The Times: “A lot of weapons have been seized over the last 12 months. But has that affected the level of gun crime? No, it hasn’t. We don’t know how many there are [in criminal hands].”
Ministers and the Home Office insist that the British Crime Survey gives a better reflection of crime in England and Wales than police figures, which cover only offences reported to officers. However, by not interviewing under16s the survey misses the extent of juvenile crime. Nor does it include crimes committed against businesses.
Marian Fitzgerald, Visiting Professor of Criminology at the University of Kent, said that the survey also failed to capture the extent of violence because of difficulties in gaining access to households in high-crime areas. She said: “The people who are most at risk of crime and serious violent crime are young men in inner cities. For the last decade social surveys have found it difficult to get into these areas.”
As a result, she said, the survey offered a more comforting picture to ministers about the extent of violence.
The Government will publish plans today for police reform, including giving elected mayors control over local policing services. The move is intended to encourage a greater take-up among local councils of directly elected mayors. A bureaucracy czar is to be appointed with the aim of cutting police paperwork and getting more officers on to the streets. There will also be direct elections for some members of police authorities who currently operate as watchdogs to local forces.
Industry sectors news at a glance. Interactive heatmap, video and podcast
The inside track on current trends in the charity, not for profit and social enterprise sectors
Read our exclusive 100 Years of Fleming and Bond interactive timeline, packed with original Times articles and reviews
Everything the Business Traveller needs to know to make a better trip
Shortcuts to help you find sections and articles
05/2005
£13,500
08/2008
£109,950
2006
£10,750
Great car insurance deals online
£Excellent+ executive benefits
Torres and Partners
London
£49,229 - £62,035 pro rata
Charity Commission
London/Liverpool/Taunton
Alstom Power
Europe
Six Figure
Rolls Royce
Midlands/Europe
From £89,950
Great Investment, River Views
Special Offers now available
At the new sophisticated
Encore Las Vegas Resort!
Cruise the Islands of Hawaii - Pride of America
List your property with two leading travel websites
Great travel insurance deals online
Contact our advertising team for advertising and sponsorship in Times Online, The Times and The Sunday Times, or place your advertisement.
Times Online Services: Dating | Jobs | Property Search | Used Cars | Holidays | Births, Marriages, Deaths
News International associated websites: Globrix | Property Finder | Milkround
Copyright 2008 Times Newspapers Ltd.
This service is provided on Times Newspapers' standard Terms and Conditions. Please read our Privacy Policy.To inquire about a licence to reproduce material from Times Online, The Times or The Sunday Times, click here.This website is published by a member of the News International Group. News International Limited, 1 Virginia St, London E98 1XY, is the holding company for the News International group and is registered in England No 81701. VAT number GB 243 8054 69.
These stats are a social construction, determined by whether the victim acually reports the crime and the motives and agendas of Government. It would also help if the police were not overloaded with paper work and were more actively on the street with the aim to reduce, detect and prevent crime.
Sara, Peckham , London
'...by not interviewing under16s the survey misses the extent of juvenile crime. Nor does it include crimes committed against businesses.'
It's a bit like calculating inflation; leave out the inconvenient stuff which may 'distort' the outcome.
Yes, congrats all round...'a remarkable performance'!
m collins, Leeds,
What about the number of victims, who feel so intimidated, they do not actually report the crime? What about the victims, who like many of us, have no faith in the justice system so won't be bothered to press charge as they know full well that the culprit will just get a slap on his wrist?
sylvain berger, Ealing, London
These statistics are compiled by a firm of market researchers but are not subject to any independent audit. The market reasearch is done very carefully and is interpreted in a proper statistical manner. Ultimately, though, it measures people's opinions and feelings rather than establishing facts.
Frank Upton, Solihull,
Accurate crime figures should include ALL reported crimes regardless of the victim's age. Figures from hospitals and insurance companies to include non reported crimes should be taken into account too.
Luke, London, UK
What happened to honesty and integrity? Its just pathetic.
Jonathan, Birmingham, UK
Does anyone believe this? Norfolk police, for example, are no longer recording vehicle vandalism as a crime. So what happens? The overall crime stats go down.
Meanwhile teenagers are running around stabbing each other- Jacqui Smith must be very pleased with herself.
It's just more Labour lies.
Steve B, Derby, UK
I could never get through on the phone to report crime. this is my personal experience so I just gave up. people in hospital with stab wounds are not counted as police not involved etc etc. I hate this government. I dont care what they say or do now to try and change they just must just go.
eve, london,
Having grown up on a council estate in Manchester in the 80s I can honestly say that living in an affluent area of North London , I now see , hear of ,and am a victim of more crimes than is acceptable in Labours England. More lies from avaricious MPs. Do MPs expenses count in the stats?
perry, London,
we have 43 police forces in the UK. The figures announced today equate to 1.5 knife offences per day per force. There is considerable media hype around this subject. I am a recently retired police officer now working in a 1400 senior school. Since being at school I haven't seen a single blade ......
Nigel Dermott, Wickford, Essex
There are lies, damned lies and statistics!
David, Doncaster, England
It's not as bad as you think - it could be worse. Here in the US, gun deaths are an epidemic - we're averaging 1 gun death per day in Philadelphia, our fourth largest city - count your lucky stars that criminals are carrying knives and not guns - maybe we should consider a knife for gun exchange?
Phil Barber, Stone Harbor, USA
These crime statistics, in my opinion, do accurately reflect the government's own "cloud cuckoo land" opinion of reality along with their equally laughable or should I say pathetically inaccurate inflation statistics..
philip, Ipswich,
I wonder if it is because many low level crimes no longer get reported as the perception is that the police are not interested.
Scott, Swindon, England
If crime is down why are the prisons full to their maximum?
david redwood, london,
Crime statistics are not able to take into account many credit card frauds, offences of countefeiting currency and goods, and, drug trafficking, which are very prevalent but not usually known to the police until arrests are made
Robert, Hull., East Yorks.,
As a retired police officer I am well aware of the tricks imposed by the Home Office on officers to reduce the true level of crime. Nothing to worry about though as community offenders will have to wear hi-visibility bibs. Those who stab others will have the joy of seeing their victims in hospital.
John Moore, Paphos, Cyprus
"almost no public faith in the crime figures"
Add to that almost no public faith in the inflation figures, almost no public faith in the MPs expenses / use of private information / infrastructure costings / immigration figures, etc etc, & one begins to wonder what the point of this government is
Jake, London, UK
Does the Government use some kind of random generator to come up with these figures? The same one they use for measuring inflation?
Mr Brown should start doing a stand-up act. The Comedy Government it might give him some credibility!
Mark, Leeds,
I work in a middle class school in a middle class area and we are seeing knife crime against our teenaged children. There is an increase whether the government chooses to acknowledge it or not.
judy, Liverpool, England
Where do these 47, 000 people live? Who are they? How often does a German man change his underpants? As often as he tells you he does. Let's have a survey to see how many people believe in surveys.
adrian, london,